Non-Diet Naturopath
The Non-Diet Naturopath is where wellness culture gets dismantled - one adrenal cocktail and trauma-blind detox plan at a time.
Hosted by Casey Conroy - naturopath, eating disorder clinician, non-diet dietitian, yoga teacher, and nature-informed practitioner with little patience for performative healing. This podcast explores the messy intersections of food, bodies, disordered eating, neurodivergence, trauma, herbal medicine, and wellness industry BS.
This podcast is for you if you:
- Are a practitioner who’s tired of root cause rhetoric that ignores trauma and complexity
- Love plants and healing but side-eye wellness influencers selling detox kits and mindset cures
- Want to be more fat-affirming, neuro-affirming, and scope-aware in your practice
- Believe nuance is sacred and rebellion should be relational, not just performative
- Still love yoga, but not yoga culture™
This podcast doesn’t just call out toxic wellness - it offers a grounded, inclusive alternative rooted in relational care, evidence, ethics, and real connection to land and body.
Expect rants, resources, and real talk - plus insight into Casey’s upcoming course Disordered Eating for Naturopaths, launching mid-2026.
Non-Diet Naturopath
Ep 40. Beyond the Binary: Re-Enchanting Practice Without Losing Our Critical Edge with Miriam Latif
Casey sits down with herbalist, writer, and mentor Miriam Latif (Understory) for a heart-opening conversation about uncertainty, nuance, and practicing in the messy middle spaces of wellness.
They unpack the collapse of certainty, the harm of binaries, how capitalism shows up in diet and purity culture, and what it means to hold both clinical rigour and enchantment.
What You’ll Hear About:
- Holding uncertainty without collapsing into doubt
- The grief and liberation of “has everything I learnt been a lie?”
- How colonialism, capitalism and patriarchy shape purity culture, diet culture, and wellness narratives
- The tension practitioners feel living between clinical spaces and enchanted, earth-based ways of knowing
- The radical power of nuance in a culture hungry for "controversial hot takes"
This episode is a balm for practitioners who straddle worlds: evidence-based and intuitive, clinical and animist, scientific and soulful... and are ready to feel at home in their complexity.
👉 Free resource:
Download the practitioner guide Working with Clients with Disordered Eating for Naturopaths and join the waitlist for Body as Earth: Foundations in Disordered Eating Awareness for Naturopaths, Herbalists & Holistic Nutritionists (opening mid-2026).
LINKS:
Miriam's Instagram: @___understory
Casey's website: https://www.funkyforest.com.au
Casey's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/funky.forest.health
Casey's Instagram: @funky.forest.health
Non-Diet Naturopath Instagram: @nondietnaturopath
Grab your FREE practitioner guide + jump on the waitlist for Disordered Eating for Naturopaths
Grab your copy of my free e-book The Modern Yogi's BS-Free Guide to Wellbeing and sign up for my regular monthly newsletter!
Welcome, welcome to the Non-Diet Naturopath Podcast. I am Casey Conroy, naturopath, dietitian, and someone who works at the crossroads of clinical practice and the wild edges of wellness culture. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that I'm recording from today, the Gubby Gubby and Jinnabara people, and pay my deepest respects to elders past and present. This always was and always will be Aboriginal land and their ongoing relationship with country, with plants, with medicine, with story, all continues to ground and guide all the work that I do. And just quickly, before we drop into today's incredible conversation, if you're a naturopath, a herbalist, a nutritionist, or really any kind of holistic practitioner wanting to deepen your capacity to work safely and confidently with clients experiencing disordered eating and body image concern, you can download my free guide, working with clients with disordered eating for naturopaths. It's on my website, funkyforest.com.au, and you can just click through on the Prackeys tab right at the top of the page and you'll find it. When you grab my guide, you'll also join the wait list for my upcoming practitioner training, Body as Earth: Foundations in Disordered Eating Awareness Fanats, Nuts, and Herbalists. This course is a trauma-informed, earth-centred, and anti-oppressive approach to food, body, and care. And it's coming in mid-2026. So when you sign up, I do send out practitioner emails with tips and support every two or so weeks. So today's episode. Wow. Uh I only just finished recording it no more than an hour ago, and I thought I have to get this out today. This conversation touched the most vulnerable, truest parts of my practice, and dare I say, my being, um, and my identity as I guess someone who lives between worlds. You're about to hear from Miriam Latif, herbalist, writer, mentor, and the creator of Understory, a home for practitioners unraveling and rewriting the stories we've inherited about wellness. This conversation was vulnerable, it was clarifying, and it was deeply, deeply affirming, um, which I did not expect, to be honest. Um, as someone who's both like a clinical eating disorder practitioner, dietitian-e type person, working with GPs and psychologists, and I and you know, also I guess I'm I'm an animist. I make like flower essences, I talk to plants and mountains and trees and weird shit like that. Um, and I've often felt like those identities were contradictions that I was supposed to like somehow tidy up or keep under wraps or something. But Miriam gently reminded me that those tensions are not flaws, that there's nothing wrong with us for holding contradictions. They're these tensions are like the fertile spaces, actually, where honesty and imagination and real medicine and integrity actually grow. Um, Miriam has this extraordinary gift of holding uncertainty without like melting or collapsing into doubt. Um, she's so passionate and yet so clear, um all while still allowing complexity. I just think that's such a rare gift. And she can comfortably say, you know, I don't know, I don't know the answer in a way that like brings you home to yourself. At least that's what it it was for me. Um these kinds of conversations, these are the conversations I think that shift a profession. What Miriam and I talked about today, I think this is the future of wellness, and I'm not even exaggerating. I am very cognizant of what I'm saying here. I genuinely think though that this is the way forward for us natural health practitioners. These are the kinds of conversations that make space for practitioners like us, we're contradictory, questioning, we're layered, we're not perfect, we're messy, we're in, and we're in these bodies. And this stuff, I feel like it makes space for us to belong. So sorry if I sound like a crazy person right now. I'm just so excited and so very grateful for Miriam and her work. And I reckon if this is your first time hearing her voice, you're also going to be um at least left asking some pretty interesting questions. So, with that, let's dive in. So, today I'm speaking with someone whose work I absolutely adore, herbalist, mentor, incredible parent, Miriam Latif, um, from Understory, who's on this mission to unfuck wellness, which I fucking love. Um, and yeah. Where did that where did that come from? When did you think of that? Because I use that all the time now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I know. I have, I don't really know. All I can say is that all this stuff started to filter in after I had my daughter. And I can't say there was like a big bang moment or anything like that. I do feel like I just had a lot of ideas come through in like late night breastfeeding, just sitting there in bed thinking on stuff. Like I've always been a big picture thinker. I've always been a systems thinker that has like a kind of natural inclination to seeing the like relationships between things. And so I guess just somehow postpartum that began to apply to like my wellness practice and how I saw wellness, and also like you know, a lot of that stuff, a lot of the issues that I have with wellness bleed into parenting as well. And you get blasted with so much stuff in early motherhood around like how to parent and how to be a perfect parent and how to be a pure parent and all that. So I think that maybe that kind of time and energy, it just yeah, it just you also I think when you have a kid get to a point where you're like, I have zero time for bullshit. You really have to cut what's not necessary, and I so I think that there was some of that as well. And at the same time, I began just reading a lot of things. I think a lot of the stuff that started to kind of make me aware of like the undercurrents inside wellness culture. I don't know if you follow the account Healing from Healing on Instagram, fellow called Adam Aronovich, who has like this really funny, humorous, salty take on wellness culture, but he's also super intelligent. Um, and another guy, gosh, what was his name? I can't remember, I'll try to get it for you later. But he started writing a lot about um traumadelic culture and how trauma has become so central in our vernacular and our like rhetoric, pop psychology, all that kind of stuff. So I started reading about that kind of stuff, and then that just led into reading more things and weaved its way into my late-night breastfeeding, you know, ponderings and I don't know, here we are. Unfucked wellness just came out of all of that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, I need to follow those people you just mentioned.
SPEAKER_02:I will really help really help Brian James. Brian James is the the fellow who writes about trauma traumedelic culture. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay, that's gonna be really interesting. All right, well, um, for any of my listeners who don't yet know you, how would you best describe the work that you do through Understory?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's always like shifting and changing in the ways that I articulate it because I'm always just like doing it and trying to figure out what exactly it is that I'm doing and get like super clear about it. Can you relate? Um so right now, yeah, right now the way I describe it is like critical conversations to challenge and change wellness culture. And the immediate thing, if people are kind of new to this space, might be like, well, what's wrong with wellness culture? And I really want to make clear that I'm not here to like tear down wellness culture. I am here to provoke these conversations because I want wellness culture to be better, because I love wellness culture, because I love my craft, I love herbalism. I do not ever want to like shame anyone for the very human inclination to like want to be well. That's like fine and good, of course. But there are problems within wellness culture, and not even necessarily innately within wellness culture, but wellness culture at has as it has like morphed and mutated out of the soil of like capitalism, patriarchy, hyper-individualism, all that kind of stuff has blared into the way we see the body and the way we do health and healing, and we need to talk about that, and we're not, and we're not for various reasons, right? Um, and so I want to have these conversations because I want wellness to be better. I really do. I think it's getting a bad rap. I think post-COVID, especially, it's getting a bad rap, rightfully so. Um, and I think it's our job, particularly as people within the industry, to return it and restore it to a place of integrity and honesty and like useful application. So kind of you.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, you're so much richness in everything you just said. You're speaking my language, girl. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:When I found it, I was like, she's speaking my language.
SPEAKER_00:Yay! And as you said, it has to come from within the wellness industry, it has to come from people like us, as opposed to, you know, your GP or people who are peripheral to it, really. Um, so yeah, likewise, I was extremely excited to find you. And you mentioned um those systems that have kind of gotten their tentacles into wellness and how that's kind of making it harder for us. I think you once wrote that something along the lines of like, how do we care for individuals when the systems and the structures they live inside of are fundamentally sick, which is like, holy crap, that kind of hit me right in the guts. And so I was wondering if you could chat about um how did that real you've kind of already answered it, how that realization first came to you during breastfeeding hours, which I totally get. They're like, yeah. Um You're in another world, different, it's a different headspace. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but like, how does that realization show up for you in practice? Um, how like you know, sometimes maybe how all the time illness maybe isn't in the body, in the system, in both. How does that show up for you?
SPEAKER_02:Like the first thing to say is like, I don't know, and I have no solution that is fixed. And I think a huge part of wellness culture is constantly presenting fixed solutions and projecting them projecting them onto a reality that is constantly in flux. So it's something that I have an attitude that changes, like, you know, on the daily. Sometimes I despair and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm seeing these people and they've got all these health issues, but how are they supposed to get better amidst like a housing crisis, you know, amidst like all the inequality they're experiencing, amidst, you know, uh a crisis of loneliness and isolation. Like, how is Ashwagunda gonna fix this? You know, some things are really like, oh wow, you know, do I just blow up everything I'm doing and like work, work and focus my attention somewhere else? The answer I often come to is no, right? And you know, I do think we generally need to have like a non-binary kind of approach to this where it's not an either-or necessarily. It's not like do we fix the systems and structures or do we fix people's individual bodies? And I I love like narratives and ways of thinking that see individual bodies as a fractal of the smaller system. And so if you tend the individual body, then you will be tending the system, and if you tend the system, you will be tending the individual body. Um, I do think we can do both at the same time. I want to be always so careful in clinic of never acknowledging the impact of systems and structures to the point that people feel like they're hopeless and there's nothing to do. I want to make sure that, you know, we can say, look, there's a lot of stuff going on outside your body that might not necessarily be in your control that may be impacting your health. And it's important to acknowledge that so that we don't perpetuate blame and shame that is so rife within wellness culture. And at the same time, that's where like the bow band sort of attitude comes in. There are things that we can do. There are places where you have agency, there are things that that you can control. And I really also like to see it as a movement between the two, right? So, why do we get well is something that I'm very passionate about exploring. And right now, wellness culture kind of promotes that we get well in the, you know, in the um, what's the word? Like for the purpose of continual self-optimization, but I really want to promote the idea that we get well to a point that we give back to the community and we can participate in making things better for other people. Yes. And you know, when we hit our limit of that, then we can tend ourselves again. And like it's a cycle, you know, it's not an either-or. The two feed into each other. So that's kind of how I I hope that answers your question.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just loving all of this so much. Um, there's again so much in that um, you know, one of the things you mentioned was really trying to convey to your people, to your clients, that their bodies aren't faulty, that we're just responding to like a an in an indigestible world. Like, um, and that alone can change the clinical dynamic without necessarily making it this binary of like we have to fix the system or we have to fix you. It's like maybe just acknowledging that is part of the medicine.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, acknowledging it and including it in our narrative of what health is and what healing is. And that even doesn't have to be explicitly um spoken, but I think when we include it in our narrative, that kind of just changes our orientation as clinicians. It changes our energy, it changes the way that we rock up in clinic. And one of my biggest gripes with wellness culture is the subtle blame and shame it places on people and the pressure that it places on people. And sometimes just acknowledging that, hey, this is not all your fault. You are responding to an indigestible world. Like that's part of that's a very important part of the healing process that can lift such an enormous burden, and it also disrupts like the wellness capitalism, right? Because it's like, oh, I'm so unwell, and I don't know it's because of the systems and structures that I live in, and therefore I'm buying this and I'm doing this, and this this frantic, I call it like the burden of being well, and of course, like it's a burden to be unwell, but there's also this burden in wellness culture to be well, and that feels like quite a counterintuitive thing to say, but this pressure to constantly be well inside a world that is so pathologically unwell, just relieving that can be a huge part, I think, of the healing process.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, it's like it takes this pressure off of wellness to be a performance, and you know, it starts to edge us back towards this is a collective effort. Um, and it reminds me of, you know, I don't know if this got drilled into your at uni as well, but like the naturopathic principles. I often like to come back to these. One of them is treat the whole person, but that to me is not just treating the person, like the whole person expands to like the ecological body, the social body, um, not just the individual. And it sounds like you really acknowledge and bring that into the consult room, which is just yeah, I try.
SPEAKER_02:I love these ideas where we can like redefine what a body is. I think that's a really like beautiful poetic exploration we can and should have. Like, maybe that's just my like personal preference, but I think reconsidering like what a body is again, it like changes our inner orientation, you know, it changes how we sit and how we rock up and how we speak and how we relate to not only our patients but relationships outside clinic as well. So, yeah, I think that is a really beautiful conversation, redefining like what a body is, and then once that's something you've integrated, noticing how that might change how you practice.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, oh my god, that could be a whole topic in and of itself. It is a really beautiful concept and something for us to hopefully reimagine as time goes on. Um, okay, so shifting ears a little bit, I wanted to ask you about um something you mentioned earlier and something that maybe a lot of us prackies have experienced, myself included, where you get to that moment where you're like, oh fuck, I've been complicit in this, like maybe harming people? Has everything I learned been a lie? Like so many of us reach that point, I think, when we realize we've internalized parts of wellness culture that don't feel right anymore, that don't fit anymore with our own values. Um, why do you think us practitioners struggle so much with not knowing? Like, not knowing the answer, not knowing what to do when we get to that realization or are asking, like, fuck, is I've just wasted$85,000 on this natural health degree or whatever. Like, why do we struggle so much with the not knowing?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's so interesting. I think that's not a personal issue, but that's a cultural issue. Like, our culture is so bad at uncertainty, and our culture has also programmed us to believe that like conflict is bad, you know. And I say bad in like air quotes because like I try to steer away from binaries and absolutes, but culturally, the narrative is that conflict is bad, and what I would love anyone in this space of like, oh my god, is it all bullshit? Is like for people to know that conflict is generative, conflict is how we phase shift, conflict is how like the new emerges, and you have to be in that point of conflict for things to change. If you are experiencing, and I'll just talk from my experience. I when I started to have these late-night breastfeeding realizations of like, oh my god, I've dedicated years and money to this, and now I'm kind of starting to think it's all bullshit. And what the reflex then is, again, because of that cultural narrative, the reflex then is to throw it all away because you don't want to feel that conflict, right? Because we we we don't live inside cultures and societies that that prime us for living with conflict, right? Um, but staying with the trouble. I think Donna Haraway says that staying with the trouble is really, really important, and staying with that conflict and getting curious about it, and not necessarily having a binary reaction where it's like, okay, this thing is bad, I've got to throw it all away. It's like, okay, this thing is bad. Why am I feeling it's bad? Is there anything that could be good in it? What might I change around it? And through that process, also understanding that whenever you arrive at conclusions, it's okay for them to shift and change as well, you know? So, yeah, we so want to be on solid ground all the time. And I can totally understand that. Once again, it's a cultural inclination. Um, we are so bad at uncertainty because it feels very unstable and like fair enough, the world is so chaotic and unstable. Again, of course, we want to have something to hold on to. But I think, you know, if we want to be great practitioners, practitioners that aren't just tending to physical health but social and cultural and collective health as well, um, integrating uncertainty I think is so important for cultural health. And so that shows up in our practice by the attitudes we have to what we do, how that translates to how we speak to our patients, and then you know, ripples out from there.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh. Yes, yes. Um, yeah, what you said about it being a cultural phenomenon, like not being comfortable with uncertainty, I would also think maybe it's just innately human. It's innately human to be in conflict with not standing on solid ground. Um, I've you know heard Buddhist teachings that go on and on about that. Um, and as you mentioned, like especially post-COVID, the level of chaos and instability in our world and in our in our systems has kind of amplified and that has really destabilized people and further polarized people and gotten us more stuck in these binaries. Um, whereas what you're saying, I think, is that to really have integrity as practitioners, bringing it back, you know, zooming back in, it's not about knowing and having the perfect stance, but like staying in the messiness, you know, you you mentioned it's okay to change your stance from day to day to like get more information, learn something else, investigate something. Oh, now my stance has kind of shifted, and that that is okay. And it's okay to be messy like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's so freeing to hear that. It's just like, oh, I can take a breath. I don't have to fucking be perfect, I don't have to have all the answers, I can just be a fucking human. Even yes, I'm a practitioner, but we're humans as well.
SPEAKER_02:And that's like the exact point. It's like patients don't want perfect practitioners, they just want people who can meet them in their humanity, and there's some nuance there because of course we have knowledge and authority that comes from that knowledge, and there's expectations of the practitioner-patient dynamic, and we do need to support people with the things that we know, but we also don't need to perform perfection and purity. And people who or patients who are coming in that are feeling the burdens of purity culture don't want a practitioner who hasn't met with their own impurity and their own messiness and their own complexity. Like, I believe we all hold conflicts and contradictions, like this is the nature of reality, it's just that we've been kind of trained to ignore them, and that creates a kind of uh tension inside of us, and so if we can be honest about that and find ways to meet that, again, I think the attitudes, the orientations, the energy-again, loaded word, but you know what I mean, that we that we hold when we sit inside clinic, I think that all makes a difference. I think that's so important, and I don't think we're talking about these things because we all are expected to perform perfection all the time. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And it's internalized. At least speaking for myself, it is internalized. Like binaries still catch me sometimes. Um, so I work in the non-diet space, I work in disordered eating, body image work, and stuff like that. And it's I've noticed especially around like weight loss tools, especially the new GLP1 medications that are really getting popular now. If someone um is referred to me who's on one of these medications, or they've just been put on one a week ago by their GP and their GP wants to send them to me to make sure that, you know, whatever. My first reaction initially when I started seeing these clients was to think like, oh, this is not aligned with non-diet work, you know. I don't know if I can do this. That really kind of more black and white way of thinking. But everything you're saying is what I try to remind myself of when I'm seeing these, you know, incredible people. That certainty is it's like it's almost intoxicating, it's like really seductive. Um but in reality, real practice, being a really solid practitioner, as you mentioned, I think, it's about staying relational. Yes. Like I can't, I can't just turn someone away just because they're navigating body image and diet culture and medication and survival, like all of us, really, in the ways that they can. You know, we we've just got to work with who's in front of us, not who we wish that they were, and not within the systems that we wish existed, kind of thing. So thank you. That's such a good reminder for me personally.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and just like it's I I do it too. I do it too all the time, falling to binaries. One place that I really show like that shows up really for me is in like my mothering and my parenting, you know. I fall into binaries there all the time. I fall into wanting to be pure, pure, I don't know what the word is puritanical or perfect, or all those kinds of things. They're all it's always gonna show up, and we can have like heaps of compassion for ourselves when we do. And I think like it's just a process, like we're never at a fixed point with it. And I just I that's why I'm just such a huge fan of like having these conversations, because these conversations build the capacity for the awareness when those things are showing up and they give us tools, you know, to to work with them. And yeah, that's why I want to see more of these conversations happening.
SPEAKER_00:Yay! Well, here's one of them. Yeah, and you know, I think being a parent, especially to little little kids like you are right now. I mean, still, my kids are nearly eight and ten, and it still feels like one continual liminal space, like a continuous pile of compost and shit that's just like bubbling and fermenting and it's messy. And sometimes you're like, oh, this is good compost. I'm doing so well. And then the next minute I'm just like losing my shit at the kids, and I feel like a complete failure. And bringing that self-compassion in is just so important because everything's, you know, maybe this parenting metaphor can be expanded to kind of everything, but what we do as practitioners as well. That everything is always in motion, it's always breaking down, it's always turning into something else, and that's how the soil gets rich. Like wanting it to just be the perfect. Sorry, I'm currently doing flower beds outside my garden gate. I can see them right now, and I'm thinking of dirt, but and you talk about this as well, you use these beautiful metaphors, but like the mess is where the soil gets rich, not arriving. That's where like the most interesting stuff happens, and having tools like self-compassion and self-kindness and and positive self-regard is like, yeah, really important.
SPEAKER_02:And then that translates to how we practice because we are. I feel like so much of my work in clinic is helping first people undo those unhelpful wellness narratives so that they can, you know, get in a position to to heal. And like we first need to be able to apply that self-compassion to ourselves before we can like make it available for like patients or at least um spot it when it when it rocks up in front of us in clinics. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And sorry to reiterate something, I think I already said it's like I'm re-educating myself, just chatting with you about this stuff, but that uncertainty like that is part of the medicine, I think. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, totally part of it, absolutely, personally and culturally.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, oh, just having a little light moment and I'm insight there. So thank you so much. What if I mean, what if we learnt that at uni? Imagine if we were taught, hey, this. Space of uncertainty that's actually where a lot of the medicine, the magic, and the good shit happens, but we're not taught that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Imagine. I don't think that'll imagine. Um, pretty far out, but like I think that our bodies are so like our bodies bear the wounds of our culture, and so much of this insistence upon certainty translates into symptoms without like I'm very cautious around saying this as well because I don't want to make things too abstract and I don't want to over-psychologize, which is another problem in wellness culture, right? But like this bent towards uncertainty can affect the way, like can affect our bodies. And so when you say like that is part of the medicine, then like, yes, literally and metaphorically, it is part of the medicine. How can we like just loosen um loosen ourselves up so that we are not so there's not so much tension, you know? And yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's part of the medicine, personally and culturally.
SPEAKER_00:Loosen ourselves up. Like, I'm just like trying to feel that in my body because I think I'm a naturally, physically very tense person. Um, and I think for a long time I've just been so terrified of not having an answer for everything was like just how I grew up and the kind of personality I have and that kind of thing. But as you've said a few times now, that's also how we become better as clinicians, like how we become more curious and more humble and more relational and more just human.
SPEAKER_02:And how we like connect to each other more, like this idea that you have to know one person has to know everything, you know, like we've all got gaps and we should all fill each other's gaps by connecting, you know. Yes, yes, this like total self self-independence and self-reliance, or whatever you want to call it, closes us off to relationships with not only other people, but relationships with plants, relationships with the natural world, relationships where we are like humble enough and uncertain enough and not knowing enough to need input from others. Human and non-human.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it it strengthens us to have those relationships. And Sarisha, I think you mentioned really recently in one of your stories or your reels or something how we can just ask for help, we can ask other practitioners for help. Like, I know I wouldn't know half the stuff that's in my brain now, um, unless I got regular or semi-regular mentoring and professional mentorship, or at least having conversations with other practitioners more casually. Like in eating disorder work, it's pretty much compulsory that we get professional supervision. And you know, there are issues around that, around accessibility and cost and all that kind of thing. But my point is that yeah, we're not meant to know everything. And that can be so scary, but also really freeing. Like I feel so free having this conversation about this topic with you.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like there's like almost this shame that comes up when you go, and I think that's why maybe we find it hard to ask for help because the no dominant narrative is that you are meant to know everything. So if you're asking you for help, you're appearing vulnerable or stupid or whatever it is, which is absolutely ridiculous. Like healing is a collective effort. Imagine if we put all our brains together, you know how much, yeah, how much like if you want to serve patients, get help. Admit that you might know something, look at the like boundaries and scope of your knowledge. It's okay not to know stuff and reach out and ask for help. And if someone can't do it, that's okay. And if they can, they will, like, it's not a big deal. Ask for help.
SPEAKER_00:Really not. It's really not a big deal, is it? Um, it's kind of it's it's bringing me actually to the next topic I wanted to ask you about. This, like, this topic of enchantment and critique. So you've mentioned, you know, in your writing, in your your reels, your social media, that wellness is please correct me if I'm wrong in how I'm saying this, but that wellness is like a response to a disenchanted culture, which I think is really powerful. And also the first time I read or heard that from you, I was just like, ooh, there's something there. She's pointing to something here that I've felt for quite a while. So can you please talk a bit about what you mean by disenchantment?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I would definitely say part of the wellness problem is that we are a disenchanted culture, and wellness then offers something like kind of witchy and magical and mystical, and that is absolutely not to say that the impulse towards wanting something witchy and magical and mystical is inherently bad. Like we are primed for animacy. It was only very recently in the whole of human history that we separated, you know, mind from body, world from self, and stopped participating in a living, breathing, animate world that we were constantly in conversation with, right? And that nourished us and and fed us in that way. Um, so when it comes to wellness culture, we that that's a very innate and important human inclination. It is something that like that that needs to be fed for our like psychological health, for our soul health, for our physical health. We need to be in conversation with the world around us. We need to be enchanted, we need to have access to awe and wonder. And I think in the absence of that, a kind of vacuum is created and things rush in to fill that vacuum again because it is so, it is, it is so essential for us to have access to that. So I don't think it's necessarily done like on purpose. It's just that that vacuum is there, and inevitably inside a complex system, something will rush in to fill that gap. And wellness fits really well inside that gap because it is a bit like magical and mystical, and it's not always uh like a material sort of thing. There's there's abstractions and there's you know, this sense of wonder that you know all our beautiful herbs can and should provide. And but then, you know, unless we're aware that that is our inclination, unless we have an awareness that that is what we're searching for, we can't really hold it and anchor it when shit gets weird. You know, start with like all these gurus and all these like super weird practices and all these very kind of around the pointy end of wellness where they're like, you know, put this machine on your finger and it will tell you all your symptoms or whatever, you know what I mean? Whatever it is, right? I really feel like again, this is the importance of having these conversations and pointing out these um kind of what's the word, like hidden dynamics. It's like, okay, if we can recognize in ourselves that we do have this inclination towards awe and wonder, then we can maybe identify, like, oh, maybe that's why I'm attracted by this weird and strange thing. And then we get to get our critical eye on and be like, maybe there's another way that I can feel that impulse towards awe and wonder and enchantment and communion, like communion with the world around us. That's what animacy is so, it's so about. You know, we feel so separated, disenchanted. The industrial revolution like has made everything completely mechanistic. Like, of course, we're feeling forlorn in that way. Of course, we're feeling like something is missing. But if we can understand that that's what's happening, we can be critical about what we're participating in, and maybe we can choose to fulfill it in ways that aren't necessarily, you know, silly, harmful, damaging, you know, and so individualized as well. Because again, it's about we're seeking communion and how can we fill that gap with with community and and enchantment in ways that don't have like a huge price tag or won't potentially harm our bodies.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, I feel so affirmed right now. In you in you naming the need that we have to have our souls fed, to be enchanted, to to witness and feel and be part of the magic and um you know commune with the earth and plants and all that kind of thing. And again, this is something I have definitely struggled with in the past. Like, on one hand, I'm this like eating disorder clinician. We have to do everything, like highly, highly evidence-based, communicating with GPs and clinical psychologists, and da-da-da. We have to be like, you know, there's no room for talking to plants or anything. And then there's this other part of me that's like, I like to talk to trees and make flower essences and stuff like that. And I think for a long time I struggled with being okay with those different bits of me and and feeling conflicted about it. Um, so that's one thing. And and so thank you for even bringing this up because it's like I feel seen. Thank you. And then the other part I, you know, you mentioned the machine that because people put on your finger and all the weird ass fucking shit that comes up at the pointy end of wellness, uh the wellness world, as you mentioned, and there's so much of it like so fucking weird. Yeah, yeah. And there's a bunch of us wellness practitioners that just get chucked out with the bathwater because we're labeled with the same degree of weirdness as all that other shit. So, I mean, how I want to and you know, I'm not asking you the answer to this, but I'm kind of wondering how do we stay connected to wonder and mystery and magic without falling for pseudoscience or spiritual bypassing? In other words, without losing discernment, how do we do both those things?
SPEAKER_02:It's kind of yeah, it's not really tricky question, but I think again, it I'm just trying to like relate it back to me and like how I might do it. And firstly, I'll say that like I get it wrong.
SPEAKER_01:Sometimes we all do it. Sometimes I do weird shit, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I'll go there, you know. That's okay, and that's fine, but I guess how would I fill my like enchantment bucket, I guess, with but but still being discerning? Gosh, it's up to everybody individually, I suppose. But I do I do think one of the the strongest aspects of it is the communion in a in a culture that is um suffering from like a loneliness and an isolation epidemic. So I think like coming back to community and and not seeking to feel that awe and wonder necessarily for like your individual growth or optimization, but coming back to community and connection and doing it like alongside people and with people, you know. I don't I don't feel like this is really answering your question, keeping that display. No, it is, it is actually. So I get like yeah, yeah, and then sorry, it's it's it's a tricky one. And then like I think again, again, the conversations, because the more you have the conversations around like these are the dynamics that are at play, you do build a capacity to recognize oh, that's that's the impulse, that's what I'm reaching for here. And when you can recognize the impulse, I think then you can have a little bit of space and a little bit of pause. And in that little pause is when the criticality gets to come in. Because wellness is so good at marketing to that, you know, it and I don't I think I think a lot of stuff wellness is doing on purpose and knows it's doing, but I think with this like filling the enchantment vacuum, I don't think it's like a consciously crafted thing. Um, and so like, but it's really good at marketing to that particular impulse in us. And if we can have enough conversations to recognize that that is happening when it's happening, so that we can have a pause before we like participate or purchase or whatever it is, and in that pause, we get to have a critical eye, and then it's in the end, it's up to you. But I just want people to have the chance to make the decision instead of the decision being constantly made for us. We want to do the weird thing, fucking go do it. Do you know what I mean? Like do it, it's fine, but I I I hope that you've had a chance to to think about it and recognize that what's at play here and consider all the dynamics and have an informed and balanced understanding of what's going on, and then make the decision. You get to you get to live any story you want, as long as the story isn't being lived for you, you know?
SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, I think that's what I'm a beautiful answer. What I heard, so what I've taken from that is that just remembering that that impulse we have for to the urge to to have enchantment and magic in our lives, that that's not wrong. Yes, that's human, like we're hungry for meaning. But that capitalism does turn that hunger into a fucking marketplace, and if we're aware of that, then that's you know, that's great. That's a good a good start.
SPEAKER_02:Just be aware of it and then like make your own decisions, you know, otherwise they get made for you. They get made for you. That's so much of what is happening in wellness culture, and it hurts me because we're vulnerable, you know. We are vulnerable, we are hurting, you know, and I think that's why also it's so important that we hurt um that we hold wellness counter culture accountable, it's because it does prey on the vulnerable. Um, and that's why I also have so much compassion for people who do get tempted or buy into these things. It's like, oh, I get it, man. I get it, you're hurting. Life is grind. Like you live in a structure in a society that is telling you you are not worthy unless you're a hundred percent productive. Like, it's I get it, I so get it, you know. But like let's let's get literate in these dynamics, you know, and and so that so that you're not such easy prey. So then what we're all not such easy prey, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Beautiful, I love that. Um I want to chat for a moment about so this is coming back to a kind of bigger theme of collapsing binaries and cultivating nuance. I love that you talk about this because I like to talk about this as well. We both talk about collapsing binaries, whether it's like health versus sickness or science versus spirit or like control versus surrender or whatever. Um, and I'm wondering this could probably be a three-hour question, but what binaries do you see most often in in our wellness spaces? Just to like name them and put them on the table.
SPEAKER_02:I think one of the most interesting binaries, the one that just came to my brain when when you started talking about that, is like wellness and illness. I think that like there is such a strong linear, uh, like exponential growth narrative that plays into wellness, right? So that um you get sick, you take the thing, and then you get better. And cycles and seasons are literally built not only into like the way our cells function, right? Because every cell dies and regenerates, but like also the way the stars function and like the planets that like go round and round and round. And I think that we need a wellness that integrates illness, which is very counterintuitive and is a very like weird and strange thing for like a health practitioner to say, and it's more philosophical than necessarily practical. But again, I think big picture because I think integrating these um non-dual sort of stories shifts the way we rock up in clinic. But I think, and especially when it comes to things like chronic illness, like that doesn't follow that like always well or only well once I take the thing kind of trajectory. It's cycles and seasons and goes up and down. And unless we have a wellness that integrates illness, or unless we have a wellness that integrates like cycles and seasonality, then we're kind of ill-equipped to really rock up for like a pretty vast amount of the population. And chronic illness is you know becoming more and more a part of the health picture of like a lot of people. And I also think to get even like more far out, it's like we have a really big culture of death denial, and we and because of that, we have a cultural inability to grieve, and I think grief is such an important part of health, and I think people that come in, especially with like chronic illness pictures that are so hell-bent on getting better in a linear, exponential kind of way, that haven't been able necessarily to meet the grief of what it is to kind of have that kind of health picture. Like that can sometimes make things worse, you know, that that tension of like just wanting to be well, you know, and again, so much compassion, and I can totally understand that. But I think there's some really interesting places in there, some really interesting stories we can start to become accustomed to as practitioners that can help us hold space for like healing with like a capital H, you know, in like the biggest, largest sense of the word. Um, so yeah, health, illness, you know, life, death, those kinds of binaries, like it's a cycle. It's like compost, like you were saying, you know, like we need to compost, we need to have moments in our health journey that aren't about getting better exponentially, that aren't about like the next goal, that aren't about growing. Like constant growth is what got us into this mess. That's what capitalism is, right? Constant growth is what uh has us like extracting and plumbing from the earth, like ad infinitum, right? It's what has created like the greatest structural kind of disease of which we are, you know, living inside right now. And so when I, you know, I have this like pretty far out theory that like the way we do wellness is the way we do the world, and that our bodies are like a corporealization or an instantiation of like the attitudes that we have in the world and how we apply them to like culture and beyond, right? And that's also why I'm so passionate about wellness because it's like there's this immediacy of our bodies, and if we can learn to have you know more non-dual attitudes, if we can learn to have more complex and nuanced attitudes in terms of like what we actually do to like the immediacy of our physical bodies, then that can ripple out into like culture and the collective as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yep, no, that that was not far out at I'm I'm so here for all of this. Yeah, everything, everything you just said. Um, I'll start from the small and then zoom in just and reflect what you said. Like so often when I'm with say a client living with an eating disorder, and they've come to me and they're like, I was doing so well, and now I've relapsed, and I'm so guttered. I'm just like, it's okay because and I do I draw like a little air graph like this is what recovery looks like. It doesn't go in a straight line up, it's like zigging, zagging, going backwards, going sideways, doing all kinds of crazy curves and shapes and dips. And actually, when I think about it, that's kind of everything. It's not just eating disorder, recovery. Um, and this capacity to like to hold the both and the and as I think you mentioned earlier. Like I can want to feel better, yeah, and I can grieve what is not reality right now, or maybe even what's not possible for me in this lifetime. And we can hold those two truths, um, you know, or it might be something like I can nourish my body and I can still have diet culture thoughts. Yes, yes. I I do that, I still have diet culture thoughts.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We swim in it, we swim in it, and just like what you said about the zooming right out and our cultural terror around death, it all it's all the same thing, it's all the same thing. Um, our intolerance of messiness and disorder and collapse and chaos and not having this like tidy perfect integration of everything, and the importance of holding nuance within it all. I think nuance is the new rebellion.
SPEAKER_01:Like, I think it's looking awesome.
SPEAKER_00:It's just it is, I think that's the most radical thing is being able to be in the shit and in the mess. And this is all stuff I probably just learnt from you watching all your reels, and now I'm just like, yes, Miriam. Um, it's to me that's revolutionary to use that word that again is overused a lot, but that's rebellious to me. That is radical. And I just love how you are voicing this and putting it on the table in front of hopefully more and more eyes and ears for us to to think about and have these conversations. It's just awesome.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think like, yeah, staying with the trouble is so important. And if we go by the idea that in order for bodies to be healthy, we need to live in systems and cultures and in stories that are healthy, that's a really important story to start putting out there. And again, it's just like when I put a counter-narrative out there, or when I speak about seeing things in a different way that kind of um subverts whatever the dominant narrative is, I'm never saying like this is right, this is how you should think. I'm just like, here's another way of seeing it. Think about that, then choose, you know, then choose. Um for me, that's why I love conversation and I love dialogue because it's a way to get those other stories out there so people can choose.
SPEAKER_00:And it's so desperately needed having not just two choices, like reminding people it doesn't have to be black and white, it's not just a binary. There are literally infinite choices. There's a whole spectrum, and spectrums are great, they're healthy. Um, and it sorry, I'm just gonna rant for like one minute, but it reminds me of this this trend where I'm seeing some wellness influencers like frame their oversimplified hot takes as rebellious and radical. But I just I don't see that as radical at all. I think staying with complexity is radical, like being willing to say, uh, it depends on XYZ and a million other things, or I don't know. I don't know the answer. Um it's I think it's radical to hold complexity, and it annoys me. I'm a bit fiery when I see this shit. It annoys me when you know there's a health practitioner out there saying, like, controversial hot take, um, ADHD is just all in the head, it's just a made-up label. Okay, I'm gonna sit down now. So but yes, we need more being okay with complexity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I I will I will definitely say I find so much tension around that. Like, I I struggle with that on in like the social media landscape that rewards binary statements and rewards absolutist statements. And sometimes I feel like I have to give something punchy that is a doorway to like the nuance. And again, that's a fucking structural problem. And I I think it's interesting how, like, I don't know, it's a chicken or the egg situation, but how binary thought and absolutist statements are what is rewarded on social media to the point that that's what you kind of need to do to support a lifestyle and whether that's kind of bled into culture or the other way, but now we do have a culture that tends to think in very like is becoming more and more polarized. And yeah, I just wanted to speak to that like conflict and that struggle I have sometimes with communicating in a way that has to grab attention, but trying to use it as a poor way, like into the nuance. I don't know if you experience that, but like I totally get it.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it's a bit conflictual at times. I think you once did a post or a reel or something about how like I'm so sick of seeing my face on my social media account. I'm just like, oh yes, I get it.
SPEAKER_02:Like ever since then, it's just been my face because I'm like, what does it do for people like get attention to be close to something that I do think is like important. So I guess my point is like I'm not like doing it right or perfect at it or anything like this. I really do struggle with these very interesting dynamics that are happening right now that are linking our livelihood to shock value on social media. I think that like needs to be spoken, like said. I don't know, I don't know what to do. Oh my gosh. Yes, I don't know what to do. Just trying and trying to shift with it and be in flux with it, and that's that's all that's all we can do.
SPEAKER_00:That's all that's right, that's all we can do. That's all we can do. Oh, all right. Um, wow, okay, so I really value your time, and I'm gonna start bringing this in, tying all the loose ends together. Um, so if we're trying here to rewrite wellness, if we're composting these old wellness stories, what are the new ones that that we should be trying to grow? Like maybe just what's one story for you, Miriam, that you know, a story about health and healing that you think we desperately need to just let uh die, to let compost.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's really that one that I mentioned before, that like healing is not about a pursuit of endless and individual self-optimization, because that's just gonna feed the systems that are keeping us sick. What do we heal for? We heal so we can be in connection and relationship and in in service to others to the point that we can, with a total recognition that some of us are sick and like can't be in service. But those people then require the people who are well to be in service and contributed community. And I really, really want to emphasize that it doesn't have to be large or grand or spectacular, right? When we're well, you can contribute and connect and be of service in like the smallest of ways, and they are often the most powerful because they are localized, they are everyday, they are simple, they are accessible. Um, so yeah, I think the self-optimization drift is one of the biggest stories that we need to collapse and compost inside wellness culture and totally re-evaluate like why we get well, and it is that movement between the individual and the collective and not being stuck in either end of the spectrum. If we're stuck in just being in service, you know, that's when like we burn out. And it's also when if we are just focused externally, we don't get the chance to analyze those narratives we've internalized. And stuff and do that inner work. Inner work is important. I don't want people to think that because I talk so much about collective and community health, I'm dismissing the importance of inner work. I just want that inner work to be in relationship and in movement and in a cycle with the outer work.
SPEAKER_00:I don't even have anything to add to that. Wonderful stuff. Thank you. Oh, actually, I do have one last kind of question before we finish out. What gives me hope right now for the future of our profession, herbalism, neutrophy, natural medicine generally?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, good question. I have hope in like meeting people like you and other practitioners that I have met just through having these conversations and saying the things that you're not meant to say out loud, who have like popped up from like the shadows and be like, I think that too. And just this process of like speaking up about these things and seeing that there are other people who hold these conflicts and these contradictions who are willing to complicate our health narratives. I do feel like, you know, we see a lot of critique coming up now lately of wellness culture from outside of wellness culture. I do think there is a groundswell of people within the industry, which, as we said at the beginning, is where it needs to happen. I do think there is a groundswell of people in the industry willing to have these conversations. And I do think, you know, we will reach enough of a critical mass that things will begin to shift. And even if it's just again the way you rock up in clinic and the ripple effect then that has with your patients, I do think slowly but surely we can begin to turn the tides of wellness culture. So yeah, meeting people like you and and connecting with and having conversations with other people who hold hold and harbour the same sort of um thoughts is what gives me hope.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's what keeps me going. Um the times when I have not had as much contact with other people, other practitioners, other people who speak up, who critique, I have felt myself shrivel a little bit, like just doing client work, just doing client work. But when I connect with people like you, you know, I'm thinking of other mentors, other practitioners, they inspire me so much and they relight the fire, and that's kind of what's kept me going. Um, when so many times I've been like, I think I'm gonna change careers again. Um so yeah, yeah, I'm I'm really with you there. All right. We need each other. How so thank you. This has been such an awesome, juicy conversation. I feel like we could talk for another like four hours about all this stuff. But um how Miriam, how can listeners connect with you and your writing and the root network and all the juicy goodness that you're putting out there?
SPEAKER_02:Um there's the basics. Um, I'm on Instagram, so that's a really accessible way. You can connect with me, and I have a mailing list, of course. Um, and then I have awesome newsletters.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome newsletters, by the way. I love them.
SPEAKER_02:Um and then I facilitate and am a part of like an underground practitioner collective and community called the Root Network, which is for herbalists, naturopaths, and nutritionists, to have these conversations and develop the capacity to be critical of wellness culture and develop the capacity to articulate some of the conflicts and contradictions you may be feeling and have conversations about how we might innovate new models and redefine wellness and how that can affect our practice. So we have those conversations, but we also do clinical work and we also just get in there and like ask each other clinical questions and like have like case study sessions and do all that kind of stuff. So it's not a place again where we're just like hanging shit on wellness, it's a place where we're like, hey, we are these people who have these conflicts and contradictions. There are part there is part of our work that we love and that we want to continue tending to, and there are parts that we have problems with, and we want to talk about those and we want to figure out how we can make it better. So that is what the root network is all about. Again, that recognition that there we are out there. Let's all gather in one place and like support each other because, like you said, it can feel so isolating to the point that you just want to bail, right? Um let's gather, let's hang out, let's connect, let's share resources, let's share knowledge, and let's talk about um yeah, how how we might be able to make this better whilst also nurturing the parts of it that we love. Um, so that is open. I'm gonna do like another doors open. Um, I don't know, March, April next year, we're aiming for. So you can get on the wait list for that via my Instagram. Um, and yeah, I also see patients one-on-one if you are not a practitioner as well.
SPEAKER_00:Incredible. Thank you so much, Miriam. This has been such a joy and a fun ride for me to have this chat with you. Um, yeah, I've been trying to build up the courage to connect with like you and other just fucking kick ass humans like you to have these conversations and um, you know, especially conversations where we are willing to sit in the muck and the shit of complexity and and because that's where the regeneration happens. And I maybe I'm just looking too, you know, jumping too far ahead here, but I honestly think this is the future of wellness, like this is it, this is the way forward for us. Maybe I'll regret saying that, but you know, that that gives me hope because I really think it's the only way forward.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_00:We can to be very binary-based.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't think we can keep doing what we're doing, so I don't necessarily know what's next, but if we can at least acknowledge that, then I think that's like a really good place to start and come together, then yeah, I think that's a good place to start.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing. Thank you so, so much. You so much, Casey.
SPEAKER_01:I love these rants.
unknown:Me too.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with the brilliant and deeply human Miriam Latif. I am still feeling the resonance of everything we just explored. The nuance, the honesty, and the relief of realizing that we don't have to choose between clinical rigour and enchantment, like between certainty and mystery. Um, between what we can measure and what we can feel. If this episode moved something in you or opened a door inside your practice, I would love to hear from you. You can message me on Instagram at funky.forest.health or reply to my newsletter or sign up to my newsletter. Or if you want to get in touch with Miriam, I think she would be okay with me mentioning this. Her Insta handle is um at uh I think triple underscore understory, which is clever. So I think just search for understory in Instagram and you will find her. And if you're a practitioner wanting to strengthen your skills in supporting clients with disordered eating, but without weight stigma, without binary thinking, and without abandoning the magic of neuropathy, don't forget to download my free guide working with clients with disordered eating for naturopaths. Bit of a shit name, because it's not just for naturopaths, it's also for herbalists, it's also for nutritionists, it is for any um natural health practitioner, really. Chinese medicine practitioners, what have you. When you sign up for that guide, you'll also be added to the wait list for Body as Earth, my practitioner training launching mid-2026. It's a trauma-informed, earth-centred, anti-oppressive approach to food, body, and care. You can find that at funkyforest.com.au slash disordered eating for naturopaths and with dashes between disordered eating for naturopaths. As always, thank you so much for being part of this community of practitioners and just humans, non-practitioners as well, who are willing to sit in the grey and hold paradox and practice and live with depth and integrity. Until next time.